Curse

Xiaquin · Sep 24, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Speaking of adding bleeding to stuff, why is it that Bleeding is so special for Rangers?

I have no idea, I tried to hint at this earlier but I didn't look at the other skills like Barbed Arrows. It's just ridiculous how many "gotchas" are in the skill set, and even without drawback, most are not great to begin with. See: Poison Arrow, Crippling Shot.

Conditions should be the backbone of the ranger bow attacks, but they come at high prices.

LifeInfusion · Sep 25, 2010, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I have no idea, I tried to hint at this earlier but I didn't look at the other skills like Barbed Arrows. It's just ridiculous how many "gotchas" are in the skill set, and even without drawback, most are not great to begin with. See: Poison Arrow, Crippling Shot.

Conditions should be the backbone of the ranger bow attacks, but they come at high prices.

I agree that conditions should be the backbone, but have you seen the Necromancer blood magic line lately? It can do bleeding, weakness, and poison in one cast with adjacent AoE (Barbed signet + Oppressive gaze). I think conditions are no longer the backbone of the ranger. Survivability due to high elemental armor and block stances was the signature I think. D-shot and interrupts for all skills were another trait but with the mesmer buffs and hard mode cast times it got displaced.

Rangers' bleeding application is solely governed by PvP and the fact that they can stack bleed and poison easily while also d-shotting or what have you. The same reason why attack skills have so low +damage is so that ranger spike (r-spike they used to call it) doesn't return (hence point blank shot is half range). The thing is, PvE mobs do r-spike because they have about 18-20 marks while they come in packs sometimes and players can't do that. Cripshot is for PvP, it's a spammable pin down.

Now that we have so many ridiculous buffs for other classes, the least they could do is remove some of the drawbacks for most of the bleeding skills, at least in PvE. They could add 1000 seconds of bleeding to every skill and it wouldn't help because in Hard mode you'll be plinking away with low +damage.

A ranger speccing in Marks and Expertise and not using Wilderness is shorthanded since it needs to bring Poison via preparations or poison tip signet to actually do more than spam + damage attack skills and d-shot + savage (maybe sloth hunter too). What's worse is preparations like Kindle arrows which make it into a damage type that is inferior to physical damage for the most part and some mobs don't suffer from conditions. Some preparations are only that way because of effect stacking. Rapid fire is an IAS, and the only reason why it is even useful is because you can use a stance at the same time (such as serpent's quickness, natural stride, or whirling defense). The problem is there is no reason to use an IAS on a bow in Hard mode and it only works with bows (spears do 14-27 and attack faster).

Disrupting accuracy is nice with GFTE but Panic makes it look bad as it doesn't suffer in hard mode. Read the wind is just an excuse of a slot, just so arrows fly faster so maybe you can interrupt HM mobs. Expert's focus is more for attack spam since the energy reduction goes after expertise. Mindless attack spam is better done with adrenaline.

Since interrupts for rangers work for all skills, the Mesmer recharge buffs with the AoE interrupts made Rangers in a precarious position. Combine this with the fact that Ranger interrupts are not surefire, need flight time, can't interrupt the casting of hard mdoe foes easily, can be blocked/miss/dodge and what have you...and then most of this advantage is taken away.

Sure you can trap, but that is gimmicky since you need to setup and pull to them. Pets are only poor due to AI and the way attacks can never be timed (14 , 2 of which are elite).

The Wilderness Survival line needs more than traps, apply poison/ barbed arrows, poison tip signet, Natural stride, troll unguent.

EDIT: And then there is ignite arrows. It would be an okay skill just for wreaking havoc on Prot monks with Reversal of fortune or damage cappers like protective spirit since it has 2 damage types that come as 2 packets. However, more common you encounter things like shielding hands (abbots), union, and stoneflesh aura (see mandragors).

Cuilan · Sep 25, 2010, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Ignite Arrows is pretty brutal in hard mode when foes have it.

Winter goes well with Mantra of Frost. Even though it's limited to locations, it's a great skill that has much use.

Disrupting Accuracy is an assassin skill (not technically) and not an elite.

The mesmer recharge change was not a buff as much as it was a fix and ranger interrupts often don't care about if something is a spell or chant. Many ranger rupts have a short recharge. Rangers are very good at rupting in hard mode PvE as someone can Great Dwarf Weapon them as they spam Barrage. Oh look, both damage and spam skills.

Nobody gives a damn about poison or bleeding in PvE unless it's included on an already good skill. You mentioned weakness again, but all professions have access to AoE weakness.

I don't think spears are too much competition for bows, but it would be nice if a few bow attacks were improved and spirits massively changed to be more useful. One or two of the multi-shot bow attacks should have their damage reducing effect removed at least in PvE. Traps let you solo and farm, even if slower. I like rangers, just not PUG rangers.

Xiaquin · Sep 25, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I think conditions are no longer the backbone of the ranger. Survivability due to high elemental armor and block stances was the signature I think. D-shot and interrupts for all skills were another trait but with the mesmer buffs and hard mode cast times it got displaced

Many professions have easier access to conditions, and melee can do it as a bodily function, so absolutely ranger needs to step up here. Interrupts are good stuff, but we all know they need improvements to be more viable, and I have some ideas of my own for fixing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Rangers' bleeding application is solely governed by PvP and the fact that they can stack bleed and poison easily while also d-shotting or what have you.

The same reason why attack skills have so low +damage is so that ranger spike (r-spike they used to call it) doesn't return (hence point blank shot is half range).

The entire profession seems to be limited to PvP-like skills. And R-spike? Give me a break. Those half range shots I can deal with, but Needling Shot, Quick Shot, everything that could make the ranger potentially great has a bear trap on it. Meanwhile, melee dominates damage and sins are massively overpowered speed clearers and farmers. How these other professions are allowed to ravage the game is beyond me; seems like ranger is just chopped liver and can be ignored without causing a furor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Rangers are very good at rupting in hard mode PvE as someone can Great Dwarf Weapon them as they spam Barrage.

Sorry, but two people a profession does not make. If it needs to rely on another person to work, it's not fair to include it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Nobody gives a damn about poison or bleeding in PvE unless it's included on an already good skill.

Just quoted for truth.

Cuilan · Sep 25, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Sorry, but two people a profession does not make. If it needs to rely on another person to work, it's not fair to include it.

Mark of Pain needs physical damage to be effective. There are many other examples, so you are wrong.

Xiaquin · Sep 25, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mark of Pain needs physical damage to be effective. There are many other examples, so you are wrong.

If you really want to use it yourself, you can, all it takes is for the necro to bring a physical damage weapon. The Manly (not sure where that word comes from) raptor farm build has a necro doing exactly this. I add that the knockdown effect on GDW is, at best, a 40% chance. Please don't equate that to an interrupt.

Cuilan · Sep 25, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

It doesn't require a necromancer and 40% is pretty high for what the ranger is doing. "Knock downs are not treated like standard interrupts, but function exactly the same" so...

LifeInfusion · Sep 25, 2010, 11:04 PM // 23:04

You can't go off what hard mode enemies do, the are running 18-20 attribute and have level bonus, so it is like me taking my warrior/elementalist/ranger/(anything that depends on armor and level) and blowing up lvl 13 mobs. By that measure you can say rangers are overpowered.

Most rangers skills haven't been split for PvE, so that is why I cited PvP as the reason for those "shortcomings". Keep in mind that longbows and flatbows extend well beyond spell range, which is why cripple/etc. is strongest on a ranger.

The mesmer recharge buff was a nerf to PVE rangers in essence. The advantage of a ranger was more interrupts (and on every skill type), but with less reliability. Now that mesmers can interrupt almost as often as d-shot/savage shot and do AoE damage ...rangers got hurt in the process. It takes more player skill as a ranger now, before it used to be that as a mesmer you need to interrupt only the important skills, not interrupt anything that you think is important.

Magebane =10/0.5/5
Savage=10/0.5/5
Punishing=10/0.5/5
d-shot=5/0.5/10
disrupting=5/0.5/15 <--- would never use this

Case in point:
*Panic (lazy mesmers don't even need to interrupt) = 10/1/15
*Psychic Instability (AOE KD) = 5/0.5/12
*complicate (20 cooldown , reduced by 8+1 fast cast turns to ~15seconds) = AOE magebane shot basically
*cry of frustration (used to be 15 energy and 10 energy and 15 cooldown = ~11seconds with 8+1 fast cast) = AOE disrupting shot / punishing shot
*cry of pain (15 cooldown)
*leech signet (used to be 30 recharge now it is 20) = now they don't even need energy
*psychic distraction affecting all skills = magebane shot is bad (5/0.25/2)
*tease = 5/0.25/15
*the introduction of nonelite power lock (a mini power block) which has 12 cooldown and has the same effect as magebane shot on spells.
There's a reason why Mantra of Recovery is elite. With 8+1 investment in fast casting power spike is on 9 cooldown while psychic instability and tease are on 11 cooldown.

Also, interrupts got super cheap: web of disruption is 5 energy, power spike is 5, psychic instability is 5, tease, etc.

EDIT: According to Developer updates, "Hard Mode: no longer affects monsters' activation speed for skills with default activation times under 2 seconds."- http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/de...l_balances.php

EDIT2: It seems while I was gone Disrupting lunge went from 5 recharge to 20, wtf?

Cuilan · Sep 26, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

It's nice you returned to the game, but most of your posts lead me to believe you should hang around a bit more before comparing. Mesmers are meant to have lots of disruptive stuff and the profession would be fairly useless without their recharge fix. Rangers are on the other hand bring spam, tools like Winter, and synergy with curse necromancers. A ranger wouldn't fill their bar with rupts anyway in PvE.

Xiaquin · Sep 26, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

(MoP) doesn't require a necromancer

Right, which is why warriors farm the daylights out of raptors with it. As I said, you don't need two party members to use the skill, you need two for GDW, and the caster has to be another human.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

and 40% is pretty high for what the ranger is doing. "Knock downs are not treated like standard interrupts, but function exactly the same" so...

There's a 28-40% chance to KD an enemy with an attack, but 1) the attack has to land at the right time and 2) 60-72% failure rate before you even calculate the timing of #1. It's not an interrupt replacement. If you see an enemy activating a deadly spell, you have to hope it triggers (and that it's not immune).

I understand what you are saying, I realize GDW can work like an interrupt, but it's not a function of a ranger, it's a function of another person who has to have the skill and then keep it up on you. As we are discussing profession balancing, I feel it's out of bounds. This would be like saying that Asuran Scan negates the need to give any skills more damage.

Amy Awien · Sep 28, 2010, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mark of Pain needs physical damage to be effective. ...

(a) anyone can bring and use MoP and (b) the Necro can bring many more packets of physical damage per second to the fight then most other professions.

Someone casting GDW on the ranger is not a plus for the ranger.

Cuilan · Sep 28, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

MoP was only one example and it is a plus for a ranger if the ranger is hitting many foes. What difference does it make if someone else is bringing MoP other than they are doing less damage? None.

Desert Rose · Sep 29, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers are meant to have lots of disruptive stuff and the profession would be fairly useless without their recharge fix.

You are wrong, as so often when it comes to defending your beloved Mesmer class.
Mesmers were meant to have very fast and unerring interrupts with very powerful effects, but therefor many of those interrupts only work on spells and have high recharge times, Rangers on the other hand have slower and less unerring interrupts with fairly weak effects, but therefor can interrupt any action and have low recharge times.
The mesmer update gave Mesmers interrupts with the advantages of both Mesmer and Ranger interrupts, but virtually without any of their disatvantages. It's true, Rangers are even less desired than before because another class can perform a role the Ranger was previously good at (interrupter) far better, and it even requires less effort.

wilebill · Sep 30, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Excellent post, Shriketalon. I started my Ranger the day Prophecies went live! Still my main character.

I agree for the most part. The Ranger does need a complete overhaul. Let's see how much we manage to get.

LifeInfusion · Sep 30, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

I just remembered why the ranger has so many block stances. Half of those were evade before everything with evade got changed to block.

The same change happened to ward against melee.

Cuilan · Sep 30, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

It's true, Rangers are even less desired than before because another class can perform a role the Ranger was previously good at (interrupter) far better, and it even requires less effort.

That one strong skill that requires many foes to be really effective. Rangers have GDW Barrage.

Xiaquin · Sep 30, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Rangers have GDW Barrage.

Do we have to go through this again? A PvE skill (especially one that cannot self-target) is not a part of the ranger.

Cuilan · Sep 30, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

It is very much apart of a ranger if they go so very well together and is something that makes them a useful profession. If you don't like it, then fine. Better players will.

Fay Vert · Oct 01, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If you don't like it, then fine. Better players will.

I love the irony of this place sometimes

Magni Ea · Nov 16, 2010, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Disclaimer: I am not upset with you Cuilan, I am just frustrated with how everything has turned out. You made a point I would like to respond to and I have some comments I would like to add to this discussion if I may...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That one strong skill that requires many foes to be really effective. Rangers have GDW Barrage.

NO, not all do or can... GDW is a EOTN skill afaik. Great Dwarf Weapon is that correct?

First of all everyone please do not forget that there are actually some players that do not own EotN expansion yet and are 100% PvE focused...

So EotN skills can't help Rangers like me, nor do all the posts saying Rangers PvP are ok help either. I play GW because it has a great set of stories between the expansions and I very much enjoy PvE without competing with 50 other people all trying to hunt the same prey. No matter how Anet says GW2 won't be a mess in PvE I have played MMOs long enough to know better. That is why I choose to return to GW to stay rather than continue MMO gaming in GW2 or another MMO.

I started GW back in Prophecies and the only profession I really ever liked then was Ranger. I could survive and I could do enough damage to do PvE fair to well, slower damage than a warrior but ok. Rangers were a tough tool box and the class worked. I tried all the classes then but I only like the Ranger (I did take a Whammo to 20 but most people did back then even if they did not admit it), and when Factions came out I tried Rit and Assassin but did not enjoy them either. I left GW in 2007 and now after many years I have returned and bought Nightfall straight from Anet so they would get the full profit instead of going to Walmart and buying the "all 4 in 1" GW box for $40 (in which Anet would probably get only $10 instead of $40). I have tried the Para and the Derv but so far they feel useless to me, or a bad fit, and so I am back to Ranger again to play and enjoy GW.

What do I find? My favorite PvE class changed over time to be far less effective in PvE (compared to how Rangers used to be I consider them broke when fighting Nightfall mobs that use the changes to skills) and I am being told that I should look to a secondary class for my ability to actually finish the missions and enjoy the story? A Ranger by it's very nature should be more than capable of relying on it's own skills without utilizing a secondary class... hence jack of all trades but master of none. Now Rangers aren't Jacks, they are closer to 5 or 6's as cards go. Or maybe that I need to buy EotN just to function in PvE now and that it was a mistake for me to think about Anet's profit instead of my own needs when I bought the Nightfall expansion from the NCsoft store instead of getting Nightfall and Eye of the North from Walmart? So not only have the buffs to other classes indirectly hurt the Ranger class (and it is very apparent to me) but more so Anets own marketing and what skills/classes were introduced with which expansions did not help either. PvXwikia has proven mostly useless to me because that website focuses so much on current skills available that Players like me that don't have EotN don't find much help there in solving our own problems, which is what I am still attempting to do, handle this myself. Maybe though that is part of the problem.... Anet has provided a diehard requirement that if I wish to continue progressing in GW it is either buy EotN or bust. EotN since it is not a campaign should be the frosting on the cake, not a layer of the cake itself.

From my point of view it unfair that I now have to buy EotN just to get a skill to make my Ranger effective in PVE when owning the first three campaigns should be more than enough skills for me to be effective and even highly successful in GW. Not everyone will own all three campaigns and the expansion especially now that GW2 is on it's way. Owning the 3 campaigns should be more than enough skills for a Ranger to do quite well, and from what I have seen playing so far since my return it's not enough. I don't want to be OP'd, just capable of doing the main quest line without getting wiped by OP'd mesmer and priest NPCs that seem to be able to do better AOE than an axe warrior or an elementalist, using skills that my interrupts don't seem to be touching to be honest.

So from my point of view the answer to adjusting the Ranger class should not be in EotN skills (or in any skills originating in a single campaign), rather adjust the core skills and attributes of the Ranger to function well regardless of what expansion a Player does or does not have. Confining an adjustment to the Ranger class to core skills and Attributes (especially Expertise attribute itself and it's skills) would benefit Primary Rangers overall no matter what campaign a player is in or what their secondary profession is.

Until Anet makes some adjustments to the Ranger class, my Rangers (yes plural) will go into mothballs. I guess my main now will be a Rit/R.... since I do enjoy Rit more than the other classes, others have said Splinter weapon/Barrage works well, I actually use nature spirits as a Ranger, and I am not giving up my Bow. I can run a FotM build too I guess for now though it's shame that I should have to do this at all. I want my Rangers to be useful enough again to be able to finish the main mission arcs like all the other professions can, and right now even with Heros if you don't own EotN Rangers can not do so with any kind of consistency.